02:01 < neutrino> what would you say?
02:02 <+copumpkin> well, to see that, you need to have dealt with tail recursion (which as I said is not intuitive in the first place). The whole point is that tail recursion is something people will go out of their way to implement, so if it was the most obvious thing to write that wouldn't be the case
02:03 < neutrino> ahh
02:03 <+copumpkin> a course based on SICP (which is used at many universities) will have assignments to convert "simple recursion" functions to tail recursion
02:03 <+copumpkin> and lots of people will leave the course and CS programs with the understanding that tail recursion is the desirable form in a functional language (or anywhere you use recursion)
02:04 < neutrino> well, yeah
02:04 <+copumpkin> which is sometimes true but not always true in Haskell
02:04 <+copumpkin> that was my only point, to begin with :)
02:04 < neutrino> that explains the original topic well
02:04 <+copumpkin> I was responding to [19:04:02] <fmap>	 pqmodn: tail recursion is mostly irrelevant in haskell (in fact, it often introduces stack problems not solves them)
02:05 <+Saizan> neutrino: there too you could have been more explicit about what kind of languages you were considering as "other"
02:05 < neutrino> but what would you say i should have said at that point in time instead?
02:05 <+copumpkin> because while there are differences, I wanted to qualify what fmap had said
02:05 <+copumpkin> since it seemed a little like an overgeneralization
02:05 <+copumpkin> lots of the high-performance strict haskell data structures use tail recursion all the time
02:06 < neutrino> Saizan: well.. i considered naming some, but i don't want to discriminate against any languages i know less. i just couldn't come up with a language at all where such a tail recursive version would be the most natural bet.
02:06 <+Saizan> neutrino: you could have named a programming paradigm, or a few families of them
02:07 < neutrino> don't you implement monoids with tail recursion?
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02:07 < neutrino> well, some monoids.
02:07 < neutrino> like a list of numbers you'd want to sum up.
02:07 < neutrino> or a tree where you want to keep count of something accumulating as you go towards the leafs.
02:08 < neutrino> but anyways
02:08 <+Saizan> neutrino: even just "the languages i know of don't teach you to use tail recursion" would have been more clear than "why would they assume that "from other languages"?"
02:08 < neutrino> yeah, i think you're right
02:09 < neutrino> i guess i'll have to think about that quoting thing, and the other things you guys said too. but i'm not sure if i'll be able to change all those things quickly (or at all), so if you see me do that again bear in mind i'm not really trying to do something bad, ok?
02:09 <+copumpkin> yep!
02:09 < neutrino> don't get me wrong, #haskell is a really nice place with lots of friendly people
02:10 < neutrino> but i can only devote so much time to coming up with a way of strictly adhering to what the perfect netizen would do in there
02:10 < neutrino> especially given the amount of different angles people come at me with in there it's a bit confusing
02:12 < neutrino> i might not make it at first but if you see me doing something you think is wrong it's good enough to give me a reminder or talk to me in private
02:12 <+Saizan> that's why it's more productive to stop just before the question and state the consideration that caused you to formulate the question
02:12 < neutrino> i'll try to keep that in mind
02:12 < neutrino> that's a good tip
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02:13 < neutrino> but this conversation has had so many good tips it's hard to choose which ones to use!
02:13 < neutrino> :)
02:13 <+Saizan> cheers :)
02:14 < neutrino> i'll see you guys around
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